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-   -   Shaun@ AED explains #8 failures. (http://www.dfw50s.com/showthread.php?t=528)

Grandpa 10-15-2012 04:41 PM

Shaun@ AED explains #8 failures.
 
What do you think?




Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun@AED (Post 12317177)
Just a little more info (nothing too technical) on what's going on these days with regards to Coyote engine failures.

Those engine builders who have seen these kind of engine failures are keenly aware the problem is a LEAN condition at WOT. This is evident by the type of piston damage seen. Spark knock creates a sharp break in the piston, lean conditions melt the piston.

Ford has adopted what others in the industry have used for quite a while. Lean A/F to create a 'broader' torque curve.

Below is a dynograph of an Twin Turbo Mercedes E63 on both the Stock tune and aftermarket.
Note the flat TQ curve of the stock tune and check out the crazy lean Air Fuel!
http://ecutuninggroup.com/files/2011...urbo-Dyno2.jpg

This is the EXACT same thing Ford programed into the Copperhead Coyote/Roadrunner ECU's.

In our case it's triggered by the Torque Calculations. As we reach the TQ limits in the tune, the ECU pulls fuel to create a 'broad' torque curve.

How do they not blow up the engines you may wonder?
Exhaust temps are monitored and in the case of our Fords, Cat enrichment is initiated at a given exhaust temp to combat Cat failure.

Below is a screenshot of a STOCK 2012 5.0 with this condition in full view:
Yellow line is COMMANDED Lambda and as it approaches 1.0 (14.1 Air Fuel) Fueling enrichment kicks in to save the Cats from damage (inadvertently saving the motor as well).
So why don't we see this on a chassis dyno? Check out the time it took for the lean condition to start....when was the last time you saw a WOT dyno run last 15+ seconds?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ogSnapshot.png

AED and their tuning partners found this late last year (Dec 2011). Once the offending Tune parameter was found we started testing on my own 5.0 with E85 in the tank to insure against any potential engine damage. Compression tests were done pre and post fix as well.
Further investigation showed more ways in which this lean WOT condition was triggered, but instead of investigating each one individually we found the commanded fueling for these conditions and modified it correctly.

As of Jan 2012 ALL AED tunes have this 'fix', as well as our tuning partners/buddies and ANY tuner that has called me and requested this information.
Of the hundreds of 5.0 tunes sent out between all of these tuners, not ONE has had an engine failure since the 'fix' has been implemented.

Some of my tuning partners have requested I refrain from posting specific technical data on these public message boards, but I prefer to have a more informed customer base.


03MachMe 10-15-2012 05:01 PM

Good to know. was reading about a number 8 failure last night on SVTP and it kinda scared me not going to lie lol

Grandpa 10-15-2012 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 03MachMe (Post 7665)
Good to know. was reading about a number 8 failure last night on SVTP and it kinda scared me not going to lie lol

I'm right there with you on it. Everyone has been giving me crap about my quiet, stock car, but I'm just doing my research before doing anything. If you read the internet too much, you'd think these cars are ticking time bombs! lol

03MachMe 10-15-2012 05:25 PM

I think for now if anything I'm going to the Procal installed at teh dealer to keep the warranty

Grandpa 10-15-2012 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 03MachMe (Post 7673)
I think for now if anything I'm going to the Procal installed at teh dealer to keep the warranty

I thought about that too. After looking into it, I don't think it's worth the money in my opinion. Not for what you get out of it. I'd just rather keep it stock until I decided to get a real tune rather than messing with the dealer at all and the minimal gains for the high cost.

BLK2012GT 10-15-2012 05:35 PM

Steve just mod your car and tune it at TS and be done with it and fall in love with your car all over again.

Midnight11 10-15-2012 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 03MachMe (Post 7673)
I think for now if anything I'm going to the Procal installed at teh dealer to keep the warranty

dont worry about it we have a 13!:favorites37:

Toby 10-15-2012 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLK2012GT (Post 7679)
Steve just mod your car and tune it at TS and be done with it and fall in love with your car all over again.

Not a single 5.0 running one of our tunes, have dealt with a single issue...

Grandpa 10-15-2012 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLK2012GT (Post 7679)
Steve just mod your car and tune it at TS and be done with it and fall in love with your car all over again.

I am, just deciding the right way to go about it. This is my process, I research everything, it's just how I do things. lol. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toby (Post 7685)
Not a single 5.0 running one of our tunes, have dealt with a single issue...

That's really good to know. I'm trying to decide which way to go and get as much information as I can about the #8 failures.

Truestreet is always my choice to go with when I can afford it, you know that, but unfortunately shop prices have gotten really high, not just you guys, but all shops.

I'm waiting to see what AED's pricing is, but I can't say I'm excited about doing email tuning even though it is street dataloged tuning which is good. I'd much rather have Sean tune it if I can.

Midnight11 10-15-2012 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toby (Post 7685)
Not a single 5.0 running one of our tunes, have dealt with a single issue...

i read that ford called #8 bama bulletin for american muscle lol

Grandpa 10-15-2012 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight11 (Post 7689)
i read that ford called #8 bama bulletin for american muscle lol

I've read a lot of stories about popped motors from Bama. I wouldn't let them tune my car for free. lol.

Grandpa 10-15-2012 09:39 PM

AED custom tunes with street datalogging is $200 bucks. Pretty reasonable. Better price than I was expecting.

Midnight11 10-15-2012 09:42 PM

thats the going rate... lund is the same

Grandpa 10-15-2012 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight11 (Post 7693)
thats the going rate... lund is the same

Lund is still having #8 issues.

BLK2012GT 10-15-2012 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 7692)
AED custom tunes with street datalogging is $200 bucks. Pretty reasonable. Better price than I was expecting.

Spend the extra couple hundred dollars and get it done right.

Grandpa 10-15-2012 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLK2012GT (Post 7695)
Spend the extra couple hundred dollars and get it done right.

How is it more "right"?

BLK2012GT 10-15-2012 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 7697)
How is it more "right"?

Instead of a email tune. It's better if they tune your car on the dyno

Midnight11 10-15-2012 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 7694)
Lund is still having #8 issues.

so has aed...

89gt-stanger 10-15-2012 10:20 PM

Toby- To be fair, I am running a TS tune through an SCT tuner. I have been getting a P219a code saying that bank 1 has bad a/f. I do have cat delets though, so I kind of expected to have some issues with cel's anyways. The car runs great otherwise! Tell tim to PM me back so I can get the car in to have the gears looked at :)

Grandpa 10-15-2012 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLK2012GT (Post 7698)
Instead of a email tune. It's better if they tune your car on the dyno

I could understand an issue with it if it was just a click file tune, rather than a street datalog tune. If you want to be technical, a street datalog tune would be more precise than a dyno tune because the datalogged tune would be from the envoirment the car is being driven in rather than a dyno room.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight11 (Post 7699)
so has aed...

Did you not read the first post? lol.

Midnight11 10-15-2012 10:26 PM

i skimmed it lol but i have no interest running his tune...

DirtyD 10-15-2012 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight11 (Post 7702)
i skimmed it lol but i have no interest running his tune...

I don't get why you are so against Shaun's tunes? He's proven and had others prove how precise and reliable his tunes can be.

There is a reason that Kevin also does street data logging for his tunes.

Midnight11 10-15-2012 10:37 PM

im not against it. just rather go dyno tuned...

Yagermeister 10-15-2012 10:55 PM

I agree with Steve. I went with AED and love it. The idle and part throttle performance along with fuel economy can't be beat...and you can't get that on a dyno no matter how good the tuner is. Two of my friends have AED tunes here in Dallas now as a result of them seeing the experience had and performance I received.

Midnight11 10-15-2012 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yagermeister (Post 7706)
I agree with Steve. I went with AED and love it. The idle and part throttle performance along with fuel economy can't be beat...and you can't get that on a dyno no matter how good the tuner is. Two of my friends have AED tunes here in Dallas now as a result of them seeing the experience had and performance I received.

just wondering but explain how a tuner here cant do idle and part throttle and one of those guys complains about mpg haha

5PointSlow 10-15-2012 10:59 PM

My car is tuned by AED. The tunes I have were street tuned which is better than a dyno tune IMO. street tuning the car has a load on it and its real world driving conditions unlike the dyno. My Blower was tuned on the street and my car was the first Roush TVS tuned by Shaun. Shaun is an awesome guy to work with and well worth the money.

DirtyD 10-15-2012 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yagermeister (Post 7706)
I agree with Steve. I went with AED and love it. The idle and part throttle performance along with fuel economy can't be beat...and you can't get that on a dyno no matter how good the tuner is. Two of my friends have AED tunes here in Dallas now as a result of them seeing the experience had and performance I received.

Due to the amount I drive my car now that I have it, I want it to be as economical as possible when I'm not wanting to have fun driving. I will probably be getting either an AED time or getting with Kevin about some tunes. I don't plan on going crazy with power mods on the car, and having the ability for Shaun to do free updates for minor mods is a great plus.

Midnight11 10-15-2012 11:03 PM

so shaun is 200 for how many tunes and free updates?

5PointSlow 10-15-2012 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight11 (Post 7710)
so shaun is 200 for how many tunes and free updates?

It was Eco tune, performance and drag tune when I originally was tuned by him. extra 50 for the idle lope. I think he now has the ECO stuff in the regular tunes now so im not sure. I was tuned by him back in February this year.

Midnight11 10-15-2012 11:07 PM

ok thats cool i do want to install some "cams" lol

5PointSlow 10-15-2012 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight11 (Post 7715)
ok thats cool i do want to install some "cams" lol

heres my youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/2009YFZR?feature=mhee

have a couple cam tune vids on there with LT's. I think i have one with just the X pipe on lol

DirtyD 10-15-2012 11:24 PM

IIRC, you get 3 tunes for the $200, eco, performance, and I think drag. I think it works by substitution for the idle lope tune by adding on an extra $50 to make it your third tune.

downtime! 10-15-2012 11:37 PM

Mine m has been tuned since shortly after I bought her, both with a canned tune from VMP and a dyno tune from Gearheads. I've made a hundred or so passes with her, and no telling how many "Mexico" runs, with no issues whatsoever. I see the stories about the number 8 failures and have to wonder how inept the person doing the tuning is.

Grandpa 10-15-2012 11:38 PM

I understand why some want the lope tune because it sounds cool, but it's not worth the long term damage is does and the drivability issues that come along with it.

5PointSlow 10-15-2012 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 7721)
I understand why some want the lope tune because it sounds cool, but it's not worth the long term damage is does and the drivability issues that come along with it.

There is no long term damage except to the cats. That's why tuners recommend off road mid pipes. Shaun said my high flows would last maybe 40k miles if I ran the tune everyday, but it's just a novelty. The lope tune is the same as the boss track key.

Grandpa 10-15-2012 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5PointSlow (Post 7725)
There is no long term damage except to the cats. That's why tuners recommend off road mid pipes. Shaun said my high flows would last maybe 40k miles if I ran the tune everyday, but it's just a novelty. The lope tune is the same as the boss track key.

That's not entirely true. There is definetely some cylinder wash going on with the large amounts of unburned fuel. Any car that runs these tunes you can smell it, it's horrible. I also suspect there will be some long term valve spring damage as well.

BLK2012GT 10-16-2012 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 7721)
I understand why some want the lope tune because it sounds cool, but it's not worth the long term damage is does and the drivability issues that come along with it.

My lope tune here soon won't have any long term damages.:win:

Grandpa 10-16-2012 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLK2012GT (Post 7729)
My lope tune here soon won't have any long term damages.:win:

Very true providing the proper springs are being used. I'm wondering how they are going to work with the variable timing in these cars. Should be interesting to see how it comes together.

BLK2012GT 10-16-2012 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve (Post 7731)
Very true providing the proper springs are being used. I'm wondering how they are going to work with the variable timing in these cars. Should be interesting to see how it comes together.

Ask Tim or Clint about that.

StormTrooper 10-16-2012 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight11 (Post 7707)
just wondering but explain how a tuner here cant do idle and part throttle and one of those guys complains about mpg haha

lol my mpg is better now that I disconnected the battery (i didn't do that when i went from the cam to the performance tune), but yes before that it was crappy and lunds was very crappy 13.4 average mpg. out of AED's tune and Lund, I would have to say so far I like AED's better :)


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