What should I do? K&N CAI vs. Stock Box & Others

[DirtyD]

Originally Posted by downtime! One of HPP's customer cars went 5.60 on Friday night at Northstar on his second run ever in the car. I'd say track prep is/was pretty good.

Yeah, I met up with Robert today and he said that they were doing bracket and jr dragster there last night, so that's one reason why the track prep was better than normal

[Oxford14Stang]

Originally Posted by downtime! One of HPP's customer cars went 5.60 on Friday night at Northstar on his second run ever in the car. I'd say track prep is/was pretty good.

Okay I don't know how to put this, they prep the track whenever a badass car pulls up to the line, like trailer queens, dragsters, race bikes, shit like that. For your test & tune cars, and or street cars they don't do shit!! on top of all that rebelracer who lives across the street from the track, and has been racing there since he was a kid in jr dragsters took professional pictures on the track(as you'd see on the facebook page when he posted some pics up), and when he walked the track he said the track was coming apart, pieces just breaking and cracking all over the track. So you can't tell me that northstar has "good prepping" they've got a select few times that they do prep. if you'd like i'll post the video of in-car-cam of me running down the track and losing traction hitting third gear going sideways at 70mph. That is complete bullshit. I shouldn't have to lift off the gas twice to get my car straight more than half way down the track and run a 9.0

Originally Posted by DirtyD Yeah, I met up with Robert today and he said that they were doing bracket and jr dragster there last night, so that's one reason why the track prep was better than normal

that's the only time they ever do anything.

[downtime!]

Originally Posted by Oxford14Stang Okay I don't know how to put this, they prep the track whenever a badass car pulls up to the line, like trailer queens, dragsters, race bikes, shit like that. For your test & tune cars, and or street cars they don't do shit!! on top of all that rebelracer who lives across the street from the track, and has been racing there since he was a kid in jr dragsters took professional pictures on the track(as you'd see on the facebook page when he posted some pics up), and when he walked the track he said the track was coming apart, pieces just breaking and cracking all over the track. So you can't tell me that northstar has "good prepping" they've got a select few times that they do prep. if you'd like i'll post the video of in-car-cam of me running down the track and losing traction hitting third gear going sideways at 70mph. That is complete bullshit. I shouldn't have to lift off the gas twice to get my car straight more than half way down the track and run a 9.0 that's the only time they ever do anything.

I don't know how to put this, but it takes a solid 20 minutes to "prep" a lane, so no, they don't do it before a "hot" car comes to the line. They might spray a little extra VHT on the line, but if you watch, they do that after so many passes anyway. From the vid you posted, I'm going to say you were on street tires, and spinning on streets is not a matter of track prep, but of driver mod. You think you should be able to launch and keep it pinned like a race car? You modulate the amount of gas pedal to accommodate your current level of traction. If you're spinning, you feather the gas until it stops, and then get back into it, it's called "pedaling". And for the record, nothing, and I mean nothing, screws up a well prepped track like someone spinning their street tires half way down the track.

[DirtyD]

Originally Posted by downtime! I don't know how to put this, but it takes a solid 20 minutes to "prep" a lane, so no, they don't do it before a "hot" car comes to the line. They might spray a little extra VHT on the line, but if you watch, they do that after so many passes anyway. From the vid you posted, I'm going to say you were on street tires, and spinning on streets is not a matter of track prep, but of driver mod. You think you should be able to launch and keep it pinned like a race car? You modulate the amount of gas pedal to accommodate your current level of traction. If you're spinning, you feather the gas until it stops, and then get back into it, it's called "pedaling". And for the record, nothing, and I mean nothing, screws up a well prepped track like someone spinning their street tires half way down the track.

Jeff was even having trouble launching on DRs at a test and tune might. Beau couldn't get it to do much better. Hooking just wasn't happening.

[Oxford14Stang]

Originally Posted by downtime! I don't know how to put this, but it takes a solid 20 minutes to "prep" a lane, so no, they don't do it before a "hot" car comes to the line. They might spray a little extra VHT on the line, but if you watch, they do that after so many passes anyway. From the vid you posted, I'm going to say you were on street tires, and spinning on streets is not a matter of track prep, but of driver mod. You think you should be able to launch and keep it pinned like a race car? You modulate the amount of gas pedal to accommodate your current level of traction. If you're spinning, you feather the gas until it stops, and then get back into it, it's called "pedaling". And for the record, nothing, and I mean nothing, screws up a well prepped track like someone spinning their street tires half way down the track.

I'm not going to have a pissing contest with you. And you're correct, I was on street tires, matter of fact the stock shitty 235/55/18s that come on the car. As far as driver mod goes and launching the car, I was launching the car at roughly 2,000 rpms in the video you can see it hooked just fine in first gear. I didn't have problems until 2nd gear(which I let off and got back on) and than third gear(which IMO was bullshit) regardless of what kind of tires I'm on. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a track suppose to have more grip than the streets? That's what I was always told. I'm not going to lie to you, I'm a newbie when it comes to the track, or track racing. I've always done street racing, and I can tell you, I broke loose at 70mph on the track, I'd be damned if I break loose and go sideways on the streets like that. I'm also well aware of the term "pedaling" my old man always referred to it as "feathering" and I understand and know that street tires screw up a so called well prepped track. But at the time I couldn't and sometimes people cant afford better tires. I'm ordering some 275s tomorrow they'll still be street tires but I have to work with what I got. And I don't want to sound like a dick or anything, and I'm not trying to start anything with you but everyone makes a big deal about hwy rolls or street racing but bitch when we actually go to the track with our street tires. Seems like it's a lose/lose situation. I've ran good times at the track, just so happens it's never happened again. I've ran a best of a 8.33 and ran consistent 8.4-8.6 all night long with the same setup I have now and same stock tires.

[KalEl370]

Originally Posted by DirtyD Yeah, I met up with Robert today and he said that they were doing bracket and jr dragster there last night, so that's one reason why the track prep was better than normal

Yea it was tough getting runs in. Only had a chance between jr dragsters and brackets. After a run or two they would call the jrs back up. Good meeting you Derek.

[Oxford14Stang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivuq5WNnGbU

that's the video. Listen to second gear as I had to let off cause i felt the car starting to slide, than listen/watch as I hit third gear.

[downtime!]

Answer me one question then, how did a car making 800 hp hook up and run a new personal best of 5.60 that night, when ya'll couldn't get 400 hp to hook up and run?

Half the battle of drag racing is figuring out the track and how your car reacts to its differing conditions. You play with your launch rpm, going up incrementally until you start to spin, and then you start varying your rear air pressure, taking a pound out every run until you bog, then you start raising your launch rpm again. It's not a guessing game, and it's not "shoot and pray".

You don't just go out and run, have a shitty lap and then blame it on the track. HPP goes out there every Friday, and every Friday, their cars and their customer cars, run some really quick times, so it can't just be the track prep.

Spend some time learning how your car reacts to the conditions. That means don't just go out there and nail it and hang on, really learn how to drive your car. What RPM does it like to launch at. Do you even look at the tach before a run? What tire pressure does it like for a given temperature? Did you check tire pressure?

That's what drag racing is actually all about. Learning your particular car and how it reacts in different conditions.

There are way too many cars out there, on any given night, that can go fast no matter what, so don't blame it on track prep. Optimize your combination, learn how to really drive it (that does NOT mean point it down track, mat the gas and hang on for the ride), and then see what happens.

[DirtyD]

I've never run mine, so I can't really talk...lol

[downtime!]

Not ragging on ya man, just get tired of hearing "bad track prep" from people that haven't figured out how to drive their cars yet. Yes, sometimes the track does suck, but not every time out. Too many people running good to blame it on the track every time.

[03MachMe]

I ran some great times at Northstar in the mach with just tired exhaust and gears

[DirtyD]

Originally Posted by 03MachMe I ran some great times at Northstar in the mach with just tired exhaust and gears

That was before they changed owners, I'm sure.

[downtime!]

It's not a pissing contest, it's supposed to inspire you to learn what you're doing wrong and make it better.

No, street tires are not supposed to hook better at the track than on the street. The track is designed for slicks or dr's. It's a smooth surface (relatively speaking) that is covered with the sticky compound of the tracks choice, and rubber laid down from all the previous runs. Streets, on the other hand, are full of small bumps (pebbles and what not) pressed into the asphalt, or grooves and texture lines in the concrete, and that gives the tread on your tires something to grab on to.

Being well aware of a term, and knowing how to do it, are two totally different things. Pedaling is extremely hard to learn to do correctly, because your natural instinct when the tires start to slip is to let off the gas completely and slow down. I learned how to do it because back in the day, DR's did not exist. All we had was slicks or streets. Running on the slicks back then was like strapping a set of skates on a pig. Cars would squirm on the launch, and then get loose on the big end and skate all over the track. Going really fast back then meant that more than likely, you crossed the stripe looking out the passenger window. Not fun, but you learn to compensate for it.

Being able to afford better tires has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about here. Sure, it's easy to slap a set of DR's on your car and go fast. But it can be done without them. It's not easy, and it requires a good deal of patience and a lot of trips to the track. Wider street tires will help. It also helps to do some research and get the softest rubber compound street tire you can find. They won't last as long, but they'll be easier to get hooked. Look for something with a rating below 280 if possible. For comparison, NT555's run in the 300 range, and most DR's are in the 100 range.

If you're spinning, doesn't matter what gear you're in, you're trying to get more power to the track than your traction will allow. Simple, right? Ever heard the old saying slow down to go faster? Use less gas pedal, modulate the brake pedal at the same time (this is an old trick to help with wheel spin), feather out, ease it back in, shift earlier, there are literally tons of things to do to help control spin. You can air down street tires a little bit, but you have to be careful to not go so low that you run the risk of breaking the bead seal. I've never ran street tires lower than 20 psi.

I'd actually rather you be at the track than racing on the streets. I did it for years, and I try not to be too hypocritical about that, but the simple facts are that these days, there are just more people on the roads at any given time, so the chances of a "bad" encounter and simply higher. The penalties for street racing are also much more severe than they used to be. When I was your age, "street racing" wasn't even an offense. It was called Exhibition of Acceleration, and it was a $50 fine. So please, take it to the track. Just take some time to really learn your car. Keep records, get a notebook and write down everything about the runs. Time of day, temperature, humidity, tire pressure, launch rpm, shock settings, ET, MPH, etc. It's all important. This will give you a baseline for setting the car up when you get to the track. You can look back through your notes, and see that on such and such day, the weather was about the same as it is now, and this is what worked that day. You start there, then make small adjustments to accommodate the track prep that will surely be different from the last time.

It's not hard, it just takes a little time and a little dedication. And, it's actually kind of fun too. You've already ran some pretty good numbers, start following these guidelines and you'll be repeating them no matter what the conditions are.

[46Tbird]

Good posts!

Oxford, in that vid, the biggest thing I see being a problem is how hard the tires were getting shocked during shifts. The stock Pirellis just won't take that when you combine it with all the rubbery goodness of the stock suspension. No amount of track prep will keep that combination of tire, suspension, and driving style planted.

I've seen some mid-11 passes on the stock Pirellis, so it can be done. The trick is keeping the tires planted, so anything that keeps the rear end from moving around is good. Control arms will help and of course so will sticky tires, but smooth clutch engagement seems to be the real trick.

[ochoblanco]

Good information!!! Although I have always been under the impression to never deflate street tires when running them at the track.